Rogue is 29 agi per % crit. Also, we gain 1 attack power per agi, whats the conversion on ranged attack?Leica wrote:Chance to Crit - Hunters get 1% chance to crit for 52.x agility. Melee classes, Are 20 agi (warrior) 25 agi (rogue) if I remember correctly.
Hunter Bugs -> Your opinions?
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arkinia
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Leica
52.5 Agi = 1% chance to crit.arkinia wrote:Rogue is 29 agi per % crit. Also, we gain 1 attack power per agi, whats the conversion on ranged attack?Leica wrote:Chance to Crit - Hunters get 1% chance to crit for 52.x agility. Melee classes, Are 20 agi (warrior) 25 agi (rogue) if I remember correctly.
2 Ranged Attack Power per 1 Agi = .13 dps per 1 Agility
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Sebboh
once I get my warrior to 60 and get him some decent gear (he's 44 now on warsong) I'll roll a hunter and see for myself why people are bitching so much. I rolled a warrior for the same reason back when people would non-stop whine about how bad they sucked and this and that. I found a lot of those complaints to be completely unwarranted, and I'd like to find out first hand if that's the case for hunters as well.
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Aurica
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Leica
I'm confident hunters will remain a viable solution for PvE soloing, PvE Raid Instances, and to some degree the 5 man instances. These nerfs are simply going to lower our dps and make things take longer to kill. The unique ability to deal damage from max range, sustained dps with low heals, will continue. And hunters will probably remain one of the highest damage/heal ratios.
PvP Wise I feel hunters still shine in group PvP, able to stand back and choose strategic targets, and we have some great group PvP CC ablilities in Frost Trap, Concussive Shot, etc.
Solo PvP has always been the weakest area for a hunter I feel. Melee classes were our strength prior to the patch I felt, and this change makes things much more difficult. Also, deflect used to = ranged parry basically. With these new changes, deflect remains, but now dodge/block/parry are added. Blizzard hasn't commented on if this is intentional or not.
I'mmnot giving up on my hunter. These changes, while severe, can be overcome. I need to challenge myself to become better.
If you want to call it whining, that's fine. However, I think it's more the case that I want these things to come to light so they can be further investigated.
PvP Wise I feel hunters still shine in group PvP, able to stand back and choose strategic targets, and we have some great group PvP CC ablilities in Frost Trap, Concussive Shot, etc.
Solo PvP has always been the weakest area for a hunter I feel. Melee classes were our strength prior to the patch I felt, and this change makes things much more difficult. Also, deflect used to = ranged parry basically. With these new changes, deflect remains, but now dodge/block/parry are added. Blizzard hasn't commented on if this is intentional or not.
I'mmnot giving up on my hunter. These changes, while severe, can be overcome. I need to challenge myself to become better.
If you want to call it whining, that's fine. However, I think it's more the case that I want these things to come to light so they can be further investigated.
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Aurica
And while I agree in principle, how often have you had low enough lag in group PvP for that strat to work?Leica wrote:PvP Wise I feel hunters still shine in group PvP, able to stand back and choose strategic targets, and we have some great group PvP CC ablilities in Frost Trap, Concussive Shot, etc.
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Leica
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Seraph
ok..i dont want to sound like devils advocate BUT
basically ranged attacks are going to be calculated much like melee attacks are?
call me crazy but that seems to level the playing field..i mean if a hunter is hitting me for 150 dmg a hit with devotion aura on ( same damage a hit that a warrior / pally hits me with almost) then i think its only fair that you should be playing by the same rules as us
and on a side note, deflecting shots vs level 60 hunters was a VERY rare occasion, at least for me anyways
maybe im misinformed who knows
basically ranged attacks are going to be calculated much like melee attacks are?
call me crazy but that seems to level the playing field..i mean if a hunter is hitting me for 150 dmg a hit with devotion aura on ( same damage a hit that a warrior / pally hits me with almost) then i think its only fair that you should be playing by the same rules as us
and on a side note, deflecting shots vs level 60 hunters was a VERY rare occasion, at least for me anyways
maybe im misinformed who knows
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Kold
It's 7:00 am, so forgive any errors in this post. Hopefully it's coherent, as I'm trying to get this info down before I forget it.
I personally was very interested in all these reports I've been hearing about this. One of the reasons is the potential nerf to defense to counter this, as I am a big fan of defense for tanking. I've been anxious to test this with Leica, but have yet to find time to do so. Tonight, however, I met a hunter on test server by the name of Xeoh(i think) who was looking for a warrior to test with. He was a member of http://www.teamvc.us and used a Stryker's Mark.
We dueled perhaps 6x in a 300 defense setup (4200ac) and 6x in a 452 defnese setup (6900 ac). The first setup had 10% dodge 10% parry and around 42% damage reduction from armor. The second setup had 15% dodge 17% parry and 56% damage reduction.
(All miss % are from my memory, so might be slightly off)
First off, I want to say obviously this is a small sample, it was about 6-8 duels in either setup, so by no means a conclusive study of the matter. In the first setup I was dodging about 10% and deflecting (assuming parry is called deflect, we saw 0 parries) 2-3%. Miss rate was around 0-1.8% each duel. His arrows hit me on average for 170-200, with crits averaging 500.
In the second (high defense) setup, i was dodging about 15%, deflecting about 5%, and the miss rate was around 3%. His arrows hit me on average for 120-160, with crits averaging 300-350. He didn't mention his crit rate in the first duel, but it was drastically down in this one. Something like 16% in spellbook but only parsing 8%.
Now, a little bit about what defense is intended to do. 25 defense = 1% dodge/block/parry. It also reduces chance to crit and increases missrate. I tank molten core with around +90 defense. I pvp with +27defense. A gear setup for +152 was sacrificing around +60 str/agi, 700hp, and 7% crit. I destroyed my stats for 8% more avoidance.
Looking at the data from those fights, things seem to be working 100% as they should be. By jacking myself to high defense gear, I increased my parry, dodge, lowered his crits, increases his misses. The parsing backed all of this up, with numbers that seem very, very reasonable. With 452 defense he was only missing around 23%, this compared to 15% with 300 defense.
Once again, obviously this was a small sample, but I think in that number of duels we would have at least had 1 with a abnormally high avoidance rate. This makes me think that hunters have an acceptable miss rate, as this is exactly what a melee would experience. If for some reason this is still a damage hit, then hunters were previously "lucky" to have unfairly high accuracy. If they intend for you to have the same miss rate as a melee class, then they may need to bump up your damage per hit to compesate, if this is actually an increase in misses from normal servers.
I dueled hitz a few times 2 days ago on test server and did not notice anything out of the ordinary. Our duels played out near identical to their Bonechewer counterparts. The only exception I can think of is the ability to deflect scatter shot.
The hunter I tested with was pleasantly surprised by our findings and very excited to try to post about this. He said he averages 9-10% missrate in molten core, and he was assuming, based on our findings, that the change from "level" to "defense" would actually increase his damage on level 63 mobs he had trouble hitting.
Slightly off topic, we did discover something I found interesting. This occured when we had our first "real" duel. After 3 ice traps, I became immune to scatter shot. Forgive me if this is common hunter knowledge, but I had never experienced that before. We quickly tested it twice more and it happened again: 3 ice traps = immune to scatter.
I would like to run the same tests on Bonechewer to see if currently your miss rate is insanely low. I'm up for it if any of you hunters are, sometime after our raid. I can get +152 defense at the moment(should have another +25 worth of gear on twinks.)
-Kold
I personally was very interested in all these reports I've been hearing about this. One of the reasons is the potential nerf to defense to counter this, as I am a big fan of defense for tanking. I've been anxious to test this with Leica, but have yet to find time to do so. Tonight, however, I met a hunter on test server by the name of Xeoh(i think) who was looking for a warrior to test with. He was a member of http://www.teamvc.us and used a Stryker's Mark.
We dueled perhaps 6x in a 300 defense setup (4200ac) and 6x in a 452 defnese setup (6900 ac). The first setup had 10% dodge 10% parry and around 42% damage reduction from armor. The second setup had 15% dodge 17% parry and 56% damage reduction.
(All miss % are from my memory, so might be slightly off)
First off, I want to say obviously this is a small sample, it was about 6-8 duels in either setup, so by no means a conclusive study of the matter. In the first setup I was dodging about 10% and deflecting (assuming parry is called deflect, we saw 0 parries) 2-3%. Miss rate was around 0-1.8% each duel. His arrows hit me on average for 170-200, with crits averaging 500.
In the second (high defense) setup, i was dodging about 15%, deflecting about 5%, and the miss rate was around 3%. His arrows hit me on average for 120-160, with crits averaging 300-350. He didn't mention his crit rate in the first duel, but it was drastically down in this one. Something like 16% in spellbook but only parsing 8%.
Now, a little bit about what defense is intended to do. 25 defense = 1% dodge/block/parry. It also reduces chance to crit and increases missrate. I tank molten core with around +90 defense. I pvp with +27defense. A gear setup for +152 was sacrificing around +60 str/agi, 700hp, and 7% crit. I destroyed my stats for 8% more avoidance.
Looking at the data from those fights, things seem to be working 100% as they should be. By jacking myself to high defense gear, I increased my parry, dodge, lowered his crits, increases his misses. The parsing backed all of this up, with numbers that seem very, very reasonable. With 452 defense he was only missing around 23%, this compared to 15% with 300 defense.
Once again, obviously this was a small sample, but I think in that number of duels we would have at least had 1 with a abnormally high avoidance rate. This makes me think that hunters have an acceptable miss rate, as this is exactly what a melee would experience. If for some reason this is still a damage hit, then hunters were previously "lucky" to have unfairly high accuracy. If they intend for you to have the same miss rate as a melee class, then they may need to bump up your damage per hit to compesate, if this is actually an increase in misses from normal servers.
I dueled hitz a few times 2 days ago on test server and did not notice anything out of the ordinary. Our duels played out near identical to their Bonechewer counterparts. The only exception I can think of is the ability to deflect scatter shot.
The hunter I tested with was pleasantly surprised by our findings and very excited to try to post about this. He said he averages 9-10% missrate in molten core, and he was assuming, based on our findings, that the change from "level" to "defense" would actually increase his damage on level 63 mobs he had trouble hitting.
Slightly off topic, we did discover something I found interesting. This occured when we had our first "real" duel. After 3 ice traps, I became immune to scatter shot. Forgive me if this is common hunter knowledge, but I had never experienced that before. We quickly tested it twice more and it happened again: 3 ice traps = immune to scatter.
I would like to run the same tests on Bonechewer to see if currently your miss rate is insanely low. I'm up for it if any of you hunters are, sometime after our raid. I can get +152 defense at the moment(should have another +25 worth of gear on twinks.)
-Kold
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Aurica
That is good news, Kold. I'll spread that around.
I believe that problem has existed since last patch. For some reason they felt that our CC diminishing returns needed to be linked.Slightly off topic, we did discover something I found interesting. This occured when we had our first "real" duel. After 3 ice traps, I became immune to scatter shot. Forgive me if this is common hunter knowledge, but I had never experienced that before. We quickly tested it twice more and it happened again: 3 ice traps = immune to scatter.
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Kold
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/threa ... post254387
This is the hunter I tested with. Apparently he posted. He made a number of mistakes in his post though, like my defense being 125 (was 152), etc.
-Kold
This is the hunter I tested with. Apparently he posted. He made a number of mistakes in his post though, like my defense being 125 (was 152), etc.
-Kold
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Leica
Kold, sorry I logged last night, wasn't feeling well. Hit me up on AIM if you want to try some tests anytime today.
I was too quick to jump on the bandwagon, like most, especially seeing the changes in our dps last patch due to their bug fixes and then their unintentional lowering of pet dps this patch.
I'd be up for running some test with the same gear on both servers, in order to get the best test set possible.
I was too quick to jump on the bandwagon, like most, especially seeing the changes in our dps last patch due to their bug fixes and then their unintentional lowering of pet dps this patch.
I'd be up for running some test with the same gear on both servers, in order to get the best test set possible.
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Kold
The more I read about this, the more clear things become. Defense isn't the issue at all. The only reason defense gets dragged into this is because it raises dodge/parry, 1% per 25. The issue here is that dodge/parry now affect ranged and you have no + damage per hit bonus to compensate. If the only "avoidance" you encounterd prepatch was misses, you missed 3-5% at most in PvP. Now, with the addition of dodge/parry, its undoubtely a dps nerf. All the testing does is show to what degree you are nerfed. From a melee perspective, the numbers I found tonight seemed like a balanced miss rate. When you take in the fact that you were landing hits 97% of the time before hand, and now even if its only a 13% dps nerf (when looking at my test w/ standard 300 defense.), thats huge.
Mirra and I will run some conclusive tests tonight ideally. Can do +172 defense or heavy +dodge/parry on both live and test to see how live servers compare. Hopefully we can get an accurate guage on how big of a nerf it is.
-Kold
Mirra and I will run some conclusive tests tonight ideally. Can do +172 defense or heavy +dodge/parry on both live and test to see how live servers compare. Hopefully we can get an accurate guage on how big of a nerf it is.
-Kold
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Aurica
I'm at least heartened that the +def items are not an issue. Although, reading the warrior forums and Joonibal's post, I am concerned for our warriors now -_-. I made a warrior alt last night and levelled to 12, to see the other side of things. I like warriors a lot, so I'll probably keep it up to 60 and see how things really are.
I have to wonder precisely who they have working at Blizzard on theory. As someone who does a good deal of freelance tabletop RPG designing, I have never had this much of a problem balancing things properly. Granted, the mechanics are more complex, but it seems to me the issues are in the math, not the power executions. Then again, I can't see behind the scenes to the game engine.
I have to wonder precisely who they have working at Blizzard on theory. As someone who does a good deal of freelance tabletop RPG designing, I have never had this much of a problem balancing things properly. Granted, the mechanics are more complex, but it seems to me the issues are in the math, not the power executions. Then again, I can't see behind the scenes to the game engine.