Vis Maior

For those Vis hunters who don't read the hunter forums, a number of pretty bad bugs have been discovered in this patch. Specifically:

1) 20-30% parry/dodge chance against ranged attacks at-level (this includes PCs and NPCs). Caydiem has said this may be intended...
2) Pet DPS nerf, number ranged from 9-20% damage reduction
3) Dash/Dive actually "proc" the speed snare bug. Using them in fact slows your pet, in other words.
4) Our quest is evidently broken somehow, although I can't get a straight answer on how or how they know.

Normally I'd reserve judgement, but after last patch this seems...bad. Granted, this is on the test server. Since we have a lot of hunters here, any opinions?

so base dodge/parry against ranged attacks for all players is now based between 20-30%? that's um...GREAT FOR ME! :p Not like i had problems dueling hunters in the first place

No Sebboh. Chance to hit with Ranged is now calculated the same way chance to his with melee is.

So, High Agi Chars and chars with dodge/parry/block modifiers can dodge/parry/block arrows.

Additionally, chance to hit is based on character's defense skill. So, a warrior with +def items will be missed more, as well as have higher dodge/parry/block.

It will work the same way on Mobs, and will likely be a signifigant dps decrease for hunters.

Further our pets were stealth nerfed approximately 20% of their dps.

Our Epic Quest is MIA or Broken.

Scattershot can be Parried.

A rogue with 30% dodge will dodge 30% of the time and evasion works against ranged.

Overall, we got hit with the stick bad, yet again.

We'll see how we hold up.

I still love playing a hunter, so I'm sticking with it, of course, but Blizzard has to see the error of their ways one of these days.

I'm hoping they realize the problem before the patch goes live, but, if they don't, hopefully by the following patch.

Patches seem to be on about a 2-3 week schedule now, maybe?

While I fully intend to keep up with Ello as my primary character because I <3 her, would it be best for Vis if I used my spare time to level a mage or a warlock or a paladin? I have viable alts in all three, and I want to be able to contribute something if hunters continue heading south.

A fairly disconcerting thought just occurred to me: what if Magmadar has a similar parry/dodge chance to other NPCs on the test server?

I don't want to offend the guild hunters, but why is the addition of the ability for ranged attacks to be dodged/parried such a big issue? I understand it decreases your DPS, but it seems to be a move toward putting every class on the same footing, as all of melee attacks can be dodged/parried as well--except for a few exceptions.

I am also skeptical about the 20-30 percent dodge/parry rates. 20 is believable but 30 seems a bit hyperbolic. I have about 2 percent to-hit chance items, and I have never had dodge/parry rates over 20 percent on even con mobs. I assume the rate would be lower for hunters, as they carry more to-hit items?

Joonibal,

I would suggest you consider how you would be reacting if you received a 16% dps in one patch, and a change that reduced your effective dps by appoximately 20% in the following patch.

All this while Blizzard acknowledges, but doesn't fix, some of the major bugs with your class.

Right now most of my complaints are based on emotion and assumption, and I understand that's not the best position to be speaking from.

Until I test more I won't have solid results. But the fact is, the hunter, was perhaps the weakest 1v1 pvp class prior to this patch, and the chance to dodge/parry has given the 3 classes which a hunter had some success against before, the ability to remove or mitigate approximately 25-35% of incoming damage during a fight, plus the 16% damage hit we took in the prior patch.

Combine that with a 20% dps loss on our pets, and you can see that the hunter has clearly lost a signifigant amount of viability.

Also, depending on Magmadar's defense still, you may be seeing upwards of 30-40% miss/dodge/parry/block on tranq shot on Magmadar.

Chance to Hit items were not working properly prior to the patch, with ranged weapons, so it is too early to know what kind of miss rates we will see until we can run MC with the new calculations.

Joonibal wrote:I don't want to offend the guild hunters, but why is the addition of the ability for ranged attacks to be dodged/parried such a big issue? I understand it decreases your DPS, but it seems to be a move toward putting every class on the same footing, as all of melee attacks can be dodged/parried as well--except for a few exceptions.

There are principally two issues with this. The first is the problematic nature of the DPS nerf following a significant one in the patch prior, as Leica mentioned. Between the two, even excluding the pet nerf (which is hoped to be a bug), we have lost 34-48% of our DPS in two patches against at-level or high foes. This means that you can expect every hunter in your raid to be producing a little over half what they were when you first began to raid with them. Despite that, if Magmadar parries like other NPCs, you will need to take more hunters than ever before, solely for his fight.

This brings us to issue two: the "equal footing" argument. I've seen it raised, though not as politely, on other forums. The problem is, we were close to being on equal footing prior to this "fix". Circumstantial equality doesn't equal full equality. Analogously, let us say we have two real-world combatants fighting: one with a sword, another with an axe. The axe does more damage, but the sword wielder has a broader variety of techniques at his disposal. Now, let's say someone invents an axe-proof armor that does nothing to decrease the sword-wielder's potential. The armor is given to both combatants, but the footing is clearly asymmetrical.

The analogy isn't perfect, because the situation in WoW is far more complex, but it gives you a general idea.

Leica & Ellonwi,

I agree that the pet DPS nerf--unless also a bug fix or explained cogently by Blizzard--is worrisome. I am also unaware of other hunter bugs and if they are severe, I can understand why you'd be upset. For the record, I was only isolating the dodge/parry issue.

I also had no idea that to-hit items may be bugged for ranged attacks.

Leica, I would say that 1v1 warriors are weaker than hunters; I do not think our warriors are very representative of the warrior norm as most of us are better skilled and better geared than the average warrior.

And Ellonwi, I don't remember us ever taking less than 3 hunters to MC; so I don't think our Magmadar fights will be so badly affected.

Joonibal wrote:Leica, I would say that 1v1 warriors are weaker than hunters; I do not think our warriors are very representative of the warrior norm as most of us are better skilled and better geared than the average warrior.

I would agree with you in the patch on the retail servers. However, I wouldn't be so quick to agree with that statement on the test server.

I need to do more testing, but it is very clear to me from the few duels I've fought, that this change is a huge nerf to hunters. And I believe it is unwarranted. We weren't particularly strong against many classes before this latest patch, now I would go so far as to say we're not particularly strong against any.

Will skilled PvP hunters continue to win? Of course, I plan to practise as much as I can, as I've said, it's my weakest area. However, you say this change makes it a level playing field, I disagree.

Joonibal wrote:I understand it decreases your DPS, but it seems to be a move toward putting every class on the same footing, as all of melee attacks can be dodged/parried as well--except for a few exceptions.

Joonibal, I considered your question a lot. It would seem, at first glance, that doing this should create an equal footing. I tried to think of why it doesn't.

I guess the biggest things I can come up with to explain why this isn't moving us to equal footing is this.

Chance to Crit - Hunters get 1% chance to crit for 52.x agility. Melee classes, Are 20 agi (warrior) 25 agi (rogue) if I remember correctly.

There are endgame melee weapons that have higher DPS than our highest DPS Bow/Gun + Thorium Arrows + 7 damage scope. Those melee weapons can be further enchanted with useful enchantments that proc strenghth/healing/debuffs.

You speak of a few skills which are guaranteed to hit as long as you don't 'miss'. The only skill a hunter has that guaranteed to hit now is counterattack. A talent that, in order to get, you have to give up your level 31 talent in any other tree. Scatter Shot can be parried, Arcane Shot can be Parried, etc.

Those are a few reasons, I'll try to come up with more, my head is splitting and I"m seeing double for some reason today.

Addendum: There is no Hunter epic set for PvP. Rather, there is a Shaman set available to both factions. It has no agility buffs.

Seriously, I'm just not sure how I'll be able to continue as a hunter after this patch. I'm beginning to feel like what little I'll contribute to PvP and Raids will not be enough to justify my presence.

Ellonwi wrote:Addendum: There is no Hunter epic set for PvP. Rather, there is a Shaman set available to both factions. It has no agility buffs.

Seriously, I'm just not sure how I'll be able to continue as a hunter after this patch. I'm beginning to feel like what little I'll contribute to PvP and Raids will not be enough to justify my presence.

Not quite correct.

The lower level mail pieces are indeed Stamina/Int, however, I believe there is a higher end set which is hunter specific, much like the warrior/shaman specific one.

Only time will tell.